Bill and Frank’s Guilt-Free Pleasures

Rod Stewart: ”Downtown Train” (with Rich Terfry)

We are thrilled to have Rich Terfry join us for this episode. Rich has been the host of CBC Radio 2's "Drive" since 2008. Besides his work for CBC Music, Rich is a published author who is also known as Buck 65 - a Juno-winning alternative hip hop artist. Today we examine Rod Stewart's glorious cover of Tom Waits' "Downtown Train."
Links:
Our Mixtape
Tom Waits Original
Rod Stewart Version
Patty Smythe Version
Bob Seeger Version
Boy Meets Girl Version
Buck 65 Bandcamp Page
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Transcript (best read on our website)
 
Intro Music
Frank:[0:22] So today on Bill and Frank's Guilt-Free Pleasures, we have a Chicken or the Egg song. Was it Downtown Train that inspired Rod Stewart's love of model trains? Or was it his love of model trains that inspired him to cover this song? That's what we're kind of looking at a little bit.Well, not at all, but that's a it's a philosophical question that that I believe needs to be asked.And also today we're really excited to have a guest with us today, Rich Terfry who some of you may know from CBC Radio 1. Rich Terfry:[0:59] Radio 2, CBC Music as we refer to it now.Frank:[1:07] Radio 2. Yes, sorry. Yeah. So Rich Terfry has been good enough to join us today and talk about this song. And I know that you're on the radio and everything,
but I can tell you're a little bit intimidated with our $25 mic stands and our towels for soundproofing, but we encourage you just to be yourself here today.Rich Terfry:[1:23] Sorry, yeah.[1:23] I'll do my best. This is much nicer than my setup at work here, so.Frank:[1:27] I'm not saying a whole lot for CBC are we?So yeah today we're looking at Downtown Train by Rod Stewart but before we talk about Downtown Train by Rod Stewart, we need to talk about Downtown Train by Tom Waits, because he was the guy that wrote the song and originally recorded it back in 1985.Bill:[1:49] Right, and that was on his Rain Dogs album, which is his most popular album, at least until... It's hard to tell...Frank:[1:57] And at least until Scarlett Johansson did her cover album, right?Bill:[2:00] Right, right, right.Rich Terfry:[2:01] Certainly a classic. Yeah. And often when people talk, Tom Waits, one of if not the first album that tends to come up in conversation.Frank:[2:12] I think it's probably maybe the most accessible. Maybe so. Yeah.Rich Terfry:[2:15] Maybe so.Bill:[2:16] Our friend Eric Stewart, no relation to Rod, sent, I asked him, I sent him a text far tooBill:[2:24] late last night asking why he's a big Tom Waits fan and asked him to tell mewhy Downtown Train works so well on Rain Dogs and he said I think because in thefirst three quarters of the album he makes the listener work so hard to findthe melody that when you finally get to something that's even close to a radio song it comes as a relief. Consonance is only pleasing in thepresence of dissonance.Frank:[2:49] I understood 70% of those words.Rich Terfry:[2:52] Yeah, I think the simple way to put it is that Rain Dogs is kind of a weird record. And then in a strange way, Downtown Train is a sore thumb.Because all of a sudden, here's like a pretty straight up standard, you know, good old structured pop song in the midst of all this weirdness.Bill:[3:39] There's talk that this was sort of like rock star bait, that there's rumors that Tom Waits had finally got his publishing to himself, and that they said that this song was put out there to sort of um... Lure. Yes.Rich Terfry:[3:51] Lure a bigger artist to, you know, specifically for the purpose of covering it.Bill:[3:59] Yeah. And allowing him to take some time off. Apparently the cover, one version I read was that allowed Tom Waits to take a couple years off to raise his kids.Yeah. Rod Stewart's version is it put in a pool. That's about to be quite a pool if it's 1989 royalties, I would think.Frank:[4:10] Yeah, I just thought it was, yeah.Rich Terfry:[4:38] So I've read a few Tom Waits biographies, none of which he kind of participated in the writing of, because I don't think that's really what he does.But some people very close to him believe that, that he was really doing that, that he was specifically trying to create cover bait, basically, with this song, and maybe a few others that he's written.Just, you know, throw in the potential hits out there, just waiting for someone to take the bait and make them some money.Bill:[5:10] If Rod Stewart wants to cover one of our podcasts...Frank:[5:12] Hey, put on American songbook like 47 or whatever he's on right now.Rich Terfry:[5:19] But don't forget, you know, Tom Waits,so the first chapter, if you will, of his career was very different from where he ended up in the 80s with this trilogy of records.Really, right? People talk about rain dogs, Swordfish Trombones and Frank's Wild Years is sort of a trilogy where hereally started to experiment, started to become the guy that ultimately he became and sort of is now. But before that in the 70s, although it was still alittle different from you know kind of what might have been on the pop charts,he was more of a songsmith less the experimenter back then. So he had this inHe knew how to write a song. Always did, I would say.Bill:[6:05] And so you have Bob Seeger hearing this and saying, this is my ticket.Frank:[6:11] Before that, Patty Smythe did a cover of it too. She covered and recorded and released it in 87.Bill:[6:14] Oh yeah, yeah you're right.Frank:[6:19] It made it on the charts, I think it charted at 93.Of all the covers that I've heard, I'm gonna say that hers is my favorite.Bill:[6:28] That's tough for you, because I know Rod Stewart means so much.Frank:[6:33] He has a big spot in my heart.[6:59] Then that brings up the whole Bob Seeger controversy, right? So the story that I read anyways was that Bob Seeger recorded the song and he was gonnarecord an entire album surrounding the song and that was his idea and he played it for Rod Stewart and then like a month after that Rod Stewart just recorded Downtown Train just as a one off to add on to a greatest hits compilation.Rich Terfry:[7:30] And managed to release it before Bob Seeger was able to.Frank:[7:34] Yeah, so Bob's like laboring on this entire album, which isbuilt around Downtown Train. And Rod's just like, Here's a one off and I'm going to release it on my on my greatest hits here.So I don't know, like, so it caused a rift between the two them because they were friends and now they're foes.Rich Terfry:[7:54] Yeah, they say Bob Seeger was genuinely ticked,and kind of felt like Rod Stewart's move kind of ruined it for him.Frank:[8:02] Yeah, yeah.Bill:[8:03] And it was the end of Seeger's had this big run until around 87, 88, I think. He actually scored a number one, the song called Shakedown on the Beverly Hills Cop 2 soundtrack.Frank:[8:14] Oh, yeah, that's right.Bill:[8:15] And it looked like, how is that number one? I remember hearing, I thought it was one of those awful throw offs they put on movie soundtracks. Or like, okay, there's one song like Shakedown, who's that? You know, as a kid, but I guess it went to number one.I should probably re-listen to it. But he was seeing Downtown Train, I think, either as a transition or like as,a big move for him as an artist. The story I heard is he told Rod Stewart about the song but hadn'tplayed it for him and get this he told to him on a train.Rich Terfry:[8:44] The plot thickens.Thanks for watching!Bill:[8:47] And then yeah now Rod Stewart's version and I I kind of believe him he's like oh I don't remember.Frank:[8:47] Layers upon layers.Bill:[8:53] That and it's believable to me that Bob Seeger might have been pouring out his heart and Rod Stewart at this stage of his life might not have been paying close attention, but he'sgot a lot of women coming in and out of different rooms and his autobiography sound like he was quite a wild man even at his age then.Frank:[9:12] Well, yeah.Bill:[9:13] Here's the tough part. Rod Stewart was 44 years old when he recorded this.Frank:[9:20] Okay.Bill:[9:20] We are 45.Frank:[9:23] I've missed my downtown train year.Bill:[9:26] You did, and  Rod Stewart, by the time he was doing Downton Train, had a whole entire career.Frank:[9:31] Yeah, I've had a career. I've had a number of careers. and just keep losing them because of gross incompetence.Bill:[9:32] Are we familiar with the story of how Rod Stewart claims that he heard the song for the first time?Rich Terfry:[9:38] I don't know if I am either.Bill:[9:49] Well, I got it from his autobiography and some mean-spirited writer online said "his autobiography"  or "whoever wrote his autobiography."He was just saying he didn't write his autobiography.Frank:[10:04] Well Rod Stewart doesn't write his own songs either so why would he write his autobiography?Bill:[10:09] Well, he did. He can write a song.Frank:[10:10] He can write his own songs. No, he can.Bill:[10:11] This is the great.I guess this this sort of marked a moment where he changed directions a bit.At least they talk about this. I'll just retell it.I was gonna read it, then I realized it's too long.So his manager came in, I think it was his manager, came in with a tape player.So this is 1989. Plays Tom Waits, Downtown Train for him. And he says to Rod Stewart, holds his hand up and says, don't speak.Plays it. Rod Stewart is listening. Plays the whole entire Downtown Train. Tom Waits stops it. And then he says, don't speak. And he plays it again.Third time. Don't speak. plays it again now Rod Stewart is singing along with it he's like I want this the song has become mine or I want to sing this song and I want to put iton the album but he's saying that's the first time he heard of the song so of,course Bob Seeger's like we talked about this on the train but Rod Stewart.Frank:[11:01] The train. That all makes sense now. Models, model trains, trains. There's a Venn diagram for Rod Stewart's life.Bill:[11:03] Might have been thinking model trains or models in general and so was yeah yeah.[11:11] Well this is the perfect song for him. Rod Stewart said his eight-year-old sonRich Terfry:[11:15] Yeah.Bill:[11:17] came into the room and says, what was that awful sound? Who is that guy singing? And Rod Stewart would say, well, Tom Wait's voice, although he loves Tom Wait's voice, this is an acquired taste.Frank:[11:28] Yeah. It's kind of, it's a pop voice.Bill:[11:28] Whereas Rod Stewart's is like a mild coffee.Rich Terfry:[11:35] Both got a bit of whether you'd call it gravel or gruff or scratchiness though, there is a quality to a degree, you know, Tom Waits is kind of cranked up to 11 but.Frank:[11:49] Yeah, yeah. Tom Waits is like a coal fire.Rich Terfry:[11:51] You're right. And you could argue that at least, you know, at times in his catalog that Bob Seeger dabbled in a little bit of that as well.and so I've wondered if I don't know the question popped into my to my head whenyou know Tom Waits is lay in this trap was he thinking specifically like you know I'll set this one out there for the gravelly voiced bros wait till they hear.Frank:[12:20] Yeah, because because at that, because at the time, like that would be 85. Right? So like Bruce Springsteen is a huge popularity. And then just follow the road down there was.Rich Terfry:[12:22] This.Frank:[12:31] Springsteen, Brian Adams, Rod Stewart, like they all have that,sort of gruffness in their voice.Rich Terfry:[12:38] They hear Tom Waits and think I can shine this up just enough.Frank:[12:41] Yeah, Tom Waits, the godfather of gravel.Rich Terfry:[12:44] Yeah. Yeah.Bill:[12:45] And the Destroyer of Friendships, I guess too. Because if he hadn't put that out, maybe Bob Seeger would still be buddies with Rod.Frank:[12:48] Oh, yeah.[12:52] They recorded an album Rod and Bob.Rich Terfry:[12:54] That was good. Yeah.Bill:[12:58] All right, so we got this. This is released on his Storytellers album, The Greatest Hits. So I thought I kept looking for it on an album. They released a demo of it, or an early version of this on his Vagabond album from 91, the Deluxe edition.It's actually surprisingly different in a way that it sounded a little closer to Tom,Waits. Yeah, Rodster's, yeah, his voice was like, he had a bit more rasp, but it was like phlegmy.Rich Terfry:[13:22] There's no way I can do that.Bill:[13:29] Rasp which really disgusted me. As I listened to it, I realized I do have issues.Clear that comes up. Yeah, yeah, I turn the taps on if someone's using a bathroom too close to me. So it's a.[14:12] So his early version actually sounded closer to Waits or at least it seemed like something that he would been used to the Tom Waits version And then maybe was still in that zone, but then I don't not sure how much Trevor Horn had to I mean, he's the producer,But he takes it and brings it into full rod or at least full late 80s rod. Yeah.Frank:[14:32] Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, what's a Oh, that's right. Yeah, he was on we talked about what the do they know it's Christmas.Bill:[14:34] We've talked Trevor Horn before He's the guy in the bugles with the thick glasses?Frank:[14:44] Right? Yeah. So, and researching the song. Yeah, you're looking you're looking Rod Stewart does his version and the,guy playing the slide guitar is Jeff Beck on this version and I diving like back deeper as far as Wikipedia was gonna take me I didn'tknow that Rod Stewart played with Jeff Beck like post yard birds no is before faces let me find it here oh yeah Stewart he he joined the Jeff.Bill:[15:07] Was it in Faces? Were they in Faces? No.Frank:[15:17] Beck group which is a super original name as a vocalist and sometimes songwriter So yeah, I guess he did write songs.Bill:[15:25] ... You heard Every Picture Tells a Story?[15:27] It's off on the side here, but Every Picture Tells a Story by Rod Stewart is phenomenal. Like, as an album.Frank:[15:34] Okay, when was that album? That was... 71. Okay.Bill:[15:35] Like 1971. It's so good that it makes it tough to listen to his later stuff just,because of Rod Stewart's capability as a singer and what direction he could have gone in that he he picked a path that was easy money and an easy easy living,but he had he had a lot of grit and.Rich Terfry:[15:57] Chutzpah.Bill:[16:00] Yes, he had a lot of chutzpah.Rich Terfry:[16:02] You know, I don't know if this is the right moment to interject this, but I find that in the story of both of the versions of this song that we're looking at today, the guest,guitarist really comes up as a big part of the story on both.Because famously, Keith Richards contributed to the Rain Dogs album, but it was GE Smith,who was the Saturday Night Live band leader who played the guitar on Tom,Waits' Downtown Train, who as far as you know guitar slingers mid-80s you knowkind of would have been one of the the top top guns out there and so I you knowyou got to think Rod Stewart's probably thinking we're gonna have to bring in a real hot guitar player on this one who you know when you're talking legendary,guitarists you don't you don't get too far down the list before before Jeff Beck's name pops up.Frank:[16:57] Okay, cool. I did not know that GE Smith because GE Smith I was always introduced like my only knowledge of him was honestly from the Saturday Night Live band And that was it. And I was just like, who's this long haired skeleton? Like, why is he in charge of the band?Rich Terfry:[17:10] Yeah yeah he was you know kind of a studio guy I think you know I'm sure heprobably made some records as well but he was a kind of a studio guitarist played on a lot of records I wouldn't be able to rhyme off you know kind of the,discography here and now but I know he played on some records but yeahinteresting that you know they both brought in some you know some big gunsto play the solos on these songs.Bill:[17:37] When I think about those two songs, like the Downtown Train, Tom Waits version, I think about that guitar. Because that guitar really, it's kind of crying and it makes you feel that sort of longing.[17:59] And when I think of Rod Stewart's Downtown Train, I don't think anything about the guitar.I'd have to re-listen to think about that guitar again. I can just think of Rod Stewart,saying oh baby and and making sounds and I'd never think about the guitar but interesting,I wonder how Jeff Beck felt about it.Frank:[18:16] Oh, they're buds. I think he enjoyed it.Bill:[18:18] Yeah, that's true. Okay.Frank:[18:37] I know that growing up that I had heard Rod Stewart because my dad probably had an eight track back in the day or or like you know 81 in the back seat of the Oldsmobile or whatever andwe're he's playing something by Rod Stewart but I remember my sister got Gasoline Alley which was,his second album she got the tape for Christmas and it was like 1990 1991 so it would have been in around the same time that Downtown Train comes out and I'm wondering if that kind of inspired her,to like look back at his catalog and start picking up some of his music and stuff like that. But,I remember her specifically getting the tape for Christmas and like my dad and my aunt is just like Rod Stewart's like who's listening to him still because he's been around since the mid-60s.Like he's been around for a good chunk of time.Rich Terfry:[19:31] Yeah, and I would think a little bit before my time, I suppose, but the peak of his solo pop stardom, I mean, I think, you know, the average person might think, you know, kind of "do you think I'm sexy" is maybe peak, you know, Rod Stewart, which at that point would have been the better part of 10 years in the rear view mirror sort of thing.Frank:[19:45] Yeah, that Maggie Mae and all that. Yeah.Rich Terfry:[19:53] Yeah. Yeah. All that, yeah.Bill:[19:54] Now you have right before it, so 89 for me, because I'm grade six then, and I grew up listening to a lot of Elvis and Amy Grant. That was kind of, those were our two big ones. So I wasn't, yeah it was.Frank:[20:08] Oh, I'm just, I'm just picturing the duet in my mind right now.Bill:[20:11] I know if only Elvis had lived long enough he'd be, he'd definitely be doing Christian rock. So.Rich Terfry:[20:17] Alright.Bill:[20:18] I know Rod Stewart through music videos and so Forever Young came out before this. Yes. And then this little heart of mine was like released before this and this was on the greatest hits.Frank:[20:23] Yes.Yeah. Oh, yeah.Bill:[20:28] And it was the second time he did this little heart of mine. I loved it.Frank:[20:32] Yeah. Yeah.Bill:[20:33] Yeah, and then this came out and it was like wow, this is amazing So I mean Canada loved it because it went to number one. I'm pretty sure in Canada.Frank:[20:40] Yeah, downtown train went to number one in Canada and three in the states.Bill:[20:44] And it also like I started looking at his previous songs and so in Canada They often went to number one up to downtown trains. So This Old Heart of Mine went to number oneI think Forever Young did really well too. So we loved Rod Stewart even in the 80s periods.Rich Terfry:[20:59] I wish I could recall this specifically, but sometime around this time, as I recall, my mom went to see him live. Okay. Yeah, so she really, and I don't have memories of her being a big time,Rod Stewart fan earlier on. Funny enough, she was actually a big Elvis fan. And I can kind of,of remember some other stuff that she would have been into late 70s, early 80s. But I think, funnyenough, this 80s era Rod is where it really grabbed her. She went to see him live. I remember her,coming home from the concert that night and telling the stories of him kicking soccer balls into the,into the crowd and, you know, loving that. So that would have been in Halifax. I wish I could remember specifically what year that would have been, but I'm thinking it was right around this time.Frank:[21:52] Yeah, because I think Out of Order and then The Vagabond Heart. I think there is a bit of a maybe a bit of a resurgence. Like maybe there's a little dip and then a little bounce back at the end of the 80s, right?Bill:[22:04] In his autobiography, he talked as though he had to prove himself with Downtown Train, but I don't get it at all because he already had Forever Young and a couple other songs in the,tank. So if it's proving yourself a year after a hit, it seems weird now in our era of 2023 where,I don't know, you could go years without doing something, you're still kind of an it. But yeah, he claimed it sort of gave new life to his career. In a lot of ways, this period pads his,his live performance career.As he goes through this, now he's becoming this touring thing that can make tons of money,I think.Frank:[22:42] What's crazy to me right now is like from the beginning of his career to like when he released this album, Storytellers, that's a smaller period of time than it is from the release of that album to now and he's still releasing music. Because it's been 30 years, well 33 years now.Bill:[23:01] Holy cow.Frank:[23:02] Since that album came out, since that first greatest hits package.Bill:[23:05] Right. And he was younger than us then, than we are now.You got that math right? I'm working through this, I got issues, it's okay.Frank:[23:12] Yes. I think so. You're the math teacher. Yeah. So listening to like Rod's version versus Tom's version and I'm gonna speak about them using just their first names.Bill:[23:17] And he changed it.Frank:[23:27] Because I feel like they're familiar to me right now and and even the the covers that like Patti Smythe did and then because eventually Bob Seeger did release a cover version I think in 2011.Bill:[23:40] He didn't like his version.So all the complaining, he's listened to it and said, I don't like it and then changed it and did a new vocal and put in backup singers.Frank:[24:18] So I found the Patty Smythe and the Bob Seeger version a little more faithful to the original in terms of the music that starts off with the guitar, warble, whale, whatever it is you want to call that. But Rod Stewart comes in, it's a little softer, a little more orchestral. And in,my mind, what he's trying to do is he he started it slow. And he's just he's going for that build because he knows how to write a pop song he knows how to do well maybe this is Trevor Horn right.Bill:[24:47] Right, but this is what his voice needs to climb that mountain.Frank:[24:52] But uh yeah yeah so it's it starts off slow and it's really soft and everything and then by the end it like he's full rod.Rich Terfry:[25:00] But yeah, the arrangement on Rod Stewart's version is the most, for lack of a better term, radio-friendly.Cut down on the intro, kind of get to it, get into it a little quicker, kind of sand off some of the edges a little bit. Although strangely, the long sort of coda at the end,which is unusual for a hit song. I'm guessing maybe when it was played on the radio, there might have been some fading going on,for that whole thing.Frank:[25:30] The DJ is talking over the end of the song. Yeah, it's almost uncomfortable.Rich Terfry:[25:32] Yeah, because that is a little unusual, I must say. That's the part of the song that surprises me.That's where this version gets almost a little bit experimental, because it goes on so long.We were listening earlier, it's like, this is almost weird how long this is going on for.Bill:[25:47] It was an awkward moment for all three of us.Rich Terfry:[25:50] But otherwise, it is a very, you know, polished and cleaned up arrangement of this song,as we discussed earlier. The spotlight is somewhat taken off the guitar. And Rod Stewart's very much the star of the showon this version of it. And it really does build in a way that Tom Waits versiondoesn't quite have that steady upward trajectory.Frank:[26:19] It doesn't have it doesn't seem like it has a peak. It just sort of it's that it's a slow burn. Yeah Rod Stewart's version like when you hit that musical bridge and I'm assuming it's a bridge right like you're a musician you can explain do you do you know what a bridge is can you explain what a bridge is to us.Rich Terfry:[26:24] Right.[26:32] Let's call it a bridge.[26:36] I usually just simply think of it as like,sort of an instrumental passage in a song that is kind of in the middle of the song rather than at the beginning or the end. And so it's usually bridging between, say, a verse and a chorus or a chorus and a nextverse or something to that effect.But yeah, usually just like an instrumental passage in the middle of the song.Frank:[26:59] OK, so I think we were right. And every every time we were asking what a bridge was. we have an answer. Yeah, yeah. Or we just end the podcast. I think that was the whole idea. The podcast was determined what a bridge was.Bill:[27:04] We finally have a succinct answer that we will now be just hitting when you ask this question next time. We'll just hit play.Rich Terfry:[27:16] . .Frank:[27:20] Well, thank you, Rich, for being on the last episode of Bill of Frank's guilt free pleasures. But but that bridge because it's climbing, climbing, climbing the entire song. But that bridge.Rich Terfry:[27:24] .Frank:[27:31] Like it takes it up like a steep ramp at that point. And then it comes to that end where he goes full Stewart.Bill:[27:53] I've written down here about my misheard lyrics. I was reading the lyrics. I'm like, that's not what I heard when I would listen to the Rod Stewart version. And I think the reason is,the Tom Waits version, there's this loneliness, longing. I don't think it's creepy, but it's certainly about someone watching somebody else and waiting to see someone he's in love with,but is never going to talk to on a train. And he's a loner who sits on a train waiting for the sameperson to come on that train and he's there kind of following her and whatever life she leads. At,least that's what I had in my head and all the other people, the Brooklyn girls who are there,going off to go out to clubs or whatever was going on then. That's what I hear when I hearthe Tom Waits version. Now the Rod Stewart version, I have no sense that this guy's a loner,or that there's any chance that she's not going to get together with him. So when I read the lyrics,I just hear it differently like there's a line so the beginning was outside another yellow moon,Has punched a hole in the nighttime mist I climbed through the window and down to the street. I'm shining like a new dime,That's Tom Waits, but when I was a kid, I don't know if you thought this but I'm like, oh Rod Stewart,He's shining like a new diamond because yeah, because Rod Stewart's a diamond.Frank:[29:11] That's what I heard too, yeah.Bill:[29:13] I keep listening back and I only hear diamond because it's Rod Stewart and he's worth a ton of money,But the dime is super depressing.So this is the Tom Waits who makes rings out of spoons, right, for somebody to get married,whereas Rod Stewart has big diamonds.Rich Terfry:[30:05] You know, and interestingly, although you could say that in the context of the Rain Dogs album that Tom Waits sort of, you know,cleans things up a little bit on Downtown Train, we talked about it being a bit of a sore thumb. And it's true, you see it in the lyrics as well as, you know, the instrumentation that's happening, the arrangement and everything else. But there, you know, just a few little,Tom Wait-isms in there, even the mere mention of a carnival in the lyrics and you know maybe this comes from you know knowing too much about these these twoindividuals. I can imagine Tom Waits hanging out at a carnival. I don't picture Rod Stewart kind.[30:47] Of roaming around a fairgrounds you know just soaking up the vibes and then although Tom Waitsis a California guy he spent some years in New York you know recording these albums and exploringsome new musical ideas. And so knowing that he was living in New York at the time, him mentioning the Brooklyn Girlsand so on, like yeah, checks out. Somehow, I don't know, Rod Stewart in Brooklyn, kind of scrappy Rod Stewart, the performancesis great and he delivers and so it's believable in that sense.But when you really kind of get in there and you take a close look at the lyrics, I don't I don't know if I'm buying.First of all, Rod Stewart, I'm always imagining a subway train rather than a commuterinterstate train or whatever. Rod Stewart riding the F train or whatever in New York.I don't see it, let alone in Brooklyn.Frank:[31:51] Unless he like rent it out for himself and that's about it, right?Rich Terfry:[31:54] Yeah, right. Maybe. And then like I said, hanging out at the carnival grounds.Frank:[32:01] Yeah, right. Maybe.Rich Terfry:[32:01] You know, not so sure.But it is interesting.And to me, that's the one real Tom Waits tell in the lyrics, you know, because he had a thing for all things carnival.Frank:[32:09] Yeah.[32:13] Yeah. Well, and it comes through on that rain dogs album, too, because there's a lot of like carnival sounds on it right?Rich Terfry:[32:16] Yeah.[32:16] Oh, sure does.Yeah, absolutely.Bill:[32:19] And it's like the dark corners of a carnival, even though I imagine everything's circular in a carnival, but there's always darkness somewhere in a corner and there's Tom.Rich Terfry:[32:26] Oh, the sideshow is where that's where Tom's hanging out.Frank:[32:30] Yeah yeah yeah that's where the freak shows are yeah yeah yeah yeah.[32:40] The opening line is something that I really love. Outside of another yellow moon has punched a hole than a nighttime mist. And I like that. It's very similar to me to Bruce Coburn's Loversin a Dangerous Time, where he says you got to kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight. Like, it's very visceral, the lyric, and you can imagine it, you can see it happening,you can see an action actually happening, you can like see the moon punching through the miss or it's almost a violent act but there's beauty in that violence.Rich Terfry:[33:12] It's a beautiful line. I mean, there's real poetry in these lyrics, and I would say more so than your average pop song, even by 80s standards. And so I must say, for me, for as much as I admire Tom Waits as a pop song, to see a few times in his career, his songs being covered and being turned into hits,surprises me in a real pleasant way because you know often you don't get this level of poetry in a number one hit pop song. Maybe from a Bruce Coburnthe odd person who's that kind of writer but and so maybe this really sayssomething about you know Rod Stewart's talent that he's able to make something that you know might otherwise be utterly inaccessible for most people in TomWade's hands turns into as big a hit as it could possibly be in Rod Stewart'shands where everyone loves it. Yeah. Basically.Bill:[34:08] This is why I have no animosity to this song. Like I might make fun of Rod Stewart once in a while, but I will listen to this song the whole way through. And even those last 40 seconds.But there is something about him bringing Tom Waits to the masses. So for me as a kid, I didn't know Tom Waits. He was terrifying. There's a video with him on a tricycle and he had devil horns.Rich Terfry:[34:28] "I Don't Want To Grow Up."Bill:[34:30] It was on Much. Yeah, I did. I couldn't, I just turned the station. I couldn't watch that, but this I could. And then years later, when I grew up, sometime in my mid 30s, I finally was ready to listento Rain Dogs. Like, oh wow, this is fantastic.But it really, if it wasn't for this, I wouldn't have got there.Rich Terfry:[34:48] Yeah. Maybe it's worth mentioning, I don't know about you, Frank, but I only, like you, Ionly became a Tom Waits fan later. I heard the Rod Stewart version first. I became familiar anyway with the Rod Stewart version before I did the Tom Waits version.Is that the same for you?Frank:[35:03] Oh, same here. Yeah, yeah. 100% I kind of knew who Tom weights was a little bit but really didn't get into understanding him. I don't still don't think I understand him. But but like, yeah, gaining an appreciation until our friend, Eric Stewart. Like, because he's such a big fan and like he plays stuff and he's just like, Oh, geez, this is good. And you listen to his like, Oh, geez, this is really good. So you start digging into it a little bit more. You were talking about that misheard lyric and there's another one.Rich Terfry:[35:17] But gaining some appreciation.Frank:[35:37] That in the Rod Stewart version, I always heard it as when I see you tonight on a downtown train. And that was a certainty. It's like when I see you because you're going to be there and I'm going to be there. But the line will I see you tonight? It just.Bill:[35:43] Yes.Frank:[35:52] Odd. It turns it right around on its head, right? And it just makes it even more sad I guess it's it's but it's so beautiful.Rich Terfry:[35:58] Right, more longing and...Bill:[36:10] Christmas night while I was listening to this song. I'm like, oh I kept hearing it seeing Will I'm like, no, it's gotta be when like you said I wrote down Rod Stewart's going to win the girl So when he sees her he's going to see her and they and they're going to be together if they're not already.Frank:[36:25] Yeah, it's a certainty.Rich Terfry:[36:26] Whereas with the Tom Waits version I absolutely assume he won't.Frank:[36:29] Yeah, well exactly.Bill:[36:31] Oh yeah, he's never talked to her.Rich Terfry:[36:32] Yeah, this is, there's much more distance.Bill:[36:45] So second verse, maybe second verse is short.The downtown trains are full, full of all them Brooklyn girls, trying so hard to break out of their little worlds. And then this line here kind of confuses me. You waveyour hand and they scatter like crows. They have nothing that'll ever capture your heart. They're just thorns without the rose. Be careful of them in the dark.[37:39] Rod Stewart's pronunciation of dark really throws me off whenever I'm saying like he I kind of wish Trevor Horn's like no Could you say dark again? It's kind of a weird our thing going on,So who's scouring my crows? Are they the Brooklyn girls?Frank:[37:53] Yeah, I think so. Because they don't have anything to offer. That this is my take on it. Like, sorry, not that they don't have anything to offer. But there's nothing of interest to,him at that point, because he's, you know, looking for that girl that he's looking for on that downtown train. That's my take.I don't know, you guys?Rich Terfry:[38:15] I've always just loved the image and like you were saying with the first line of the song it just really conjures a strong image in my mind I've never really been able to get past that to even think about it too much I just love that image.Bill:[38:28] Rod Stewart said that Tom Waits can do imagery so well as a songwriter and then Rod Stewart's like, I have to work on that, which is classic Rod Stewart sort of like, I gotta work on that.Frank:[38:40] It's like I try.Bill:[38:40] And then he said, I just write from the heart. That's what I do. I'm like, you're such a...Frank:[38:44] This is why I love Rod Stewart so much because he's all feeling. That's all I am.Bill:[38:48] He's all feeling. But the thorns without the rose, it's such a great image. And I like what you say,that Rich is like, just the image being there is enough.Like I can't really pierce through it. There's a little bit of thorn imagery there, but I don't totally know, but that what he paints there,is something that's true.Frank:[39:09] Yeah.[39:09] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.Bill:[39:11] If that makes sense.And there's a little line before, if I was the one you chose to be your only one.[39:19] Oh baby, can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?Frank:[39:22] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.Bill:[39:23] So with Ron Rod Stewart saying, Oh baby, it's not like Tom White saying, Oh baby,where it's just, let's sort of the walk away from it, but his old baby is like, okay so you're getting you're getting you're getting with it.Frank:[39:34] You're getting the girl.[39:48] Well then then you jump into the the the course, which is, you,know, will I see you tonight on a downtown train? Every nightevery night is just the same on a downtown train. I like I likeit. It's it's a good little course. It does its job andeverything and that question of will will I see you tonight? Ireally like that reading through the lyrics as opposed tolistening to the lyrics and understanding what the actuallyric was it like you said it just adds that longing.Rich Terfry:[40:38] It's, in my experience, rare touching on what you just mentioned, Frank, where reading the lyrics of a pop song gives you a whole other rewarding experience often.Otherwise, with a lot of pop songs, it really does nothing to heighten your experience of it. If anything, it might even drag it down. It's like, oh, these lyrics are terrible.Frank:[41:00] Yeah.Rich Terfry:[41:00] It's all just, a lot of songs are just carried by the melody. And the melody of this song is very, very strong as well.and I think that's what makes, I think you could argue anyhow, the chorus of this songmemorable is the melody of it is so great.But it's true that there's a lot of people out there don't even really pay a lot of attention to lyrics, but if you're one such person and you do decide one day to look them up and,you read them, you're going to be floored. Whereas a lot of pop songs, they're not really going to give you a lot to sink your teethbut there's a lot going on here.Frank:[41:31] Well, I mean, you would have been similar to us like today, like with everything streaming and all of that. You just listen to songs.But when I was really getting into music in the 90s, you had CDs and you had CD cases. And that was my favorite thing to do was open up, check out the artwork and follow along with the lyrics, with the songs and then try and experience them that way.And you're absolutely right. you gain a better appreciation of the song.Rich Terfry:[41:58] And I think that, you know, I lament that a little bit for, you know, sort of younger generations today. Although it's easy enough, you know, everything's on online, it's easy enough to Google lyrics,but it's not always necessarily a part of the experience when you're streaming.It's not right there like it is if you're, you know, kind of, you know, playing a CD and you havethe case in your hands or for that matter, you know, on an LP or something like that. There's that function if you're using Apple Music where if you, you know, tap a couple things and you can bring up the lyrics, but it's sort of a little bit of effort to do.But I sometimes wonder if young people are really, you know, spending time with lyrics of songs the way we used to automatically because the experience you described I think was a fairly universal one. I think everyone loved doing that.Frank:[42:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was always the because there are different types of CD cases to like there's the there's the book, then there's the ones that would just fold out lengthwise.Rich Terfry:[42:55] Fold.[42:55] Poster, sure. Never get it right.Frank:[42:56] And then there was the ones that folded out almost into a poster and then trying to fold those back where it was just terrible.Bill:[43:02] "Fully Completely." I remember looking like what? Oh, come on. That's not how you put lyrics on a sheet Don't be crazy and then REM would come out with like a booklet and then you just realize they're Michael Stipe pictures and that.Frank:[43:08] Yeah.Bill:[43:14] Made me so angry. We're like you could have put the lyrics on I still don't know what you're saying.Rich Terfry:[43:19] I don't think he wanted you to know what he was saying, But that's a whole other discussion right there.Bill:[43:22] Yeah, yeah.Frank:[43:24] Well, I bet the there's the third verse we can we can go we talked about it a little bit but it's like the I know your window and I know it's late.Bill:[43:26] Alright Frank, we hitting every single lyric on this song?Frank:[43:38] I know your stairs and your doorway, which I think could be taken as creepy.But again, there's, there's from Tom Waits, like from his perspective, it's like, I don't find it creepy. find it sad.[44:23] Yeah, he's because he's going there and he's.Bill:[44:25] It makes me think a little bit of Taxi Driver, a little bit, which is a little more creepy. But when Rod Stewart says it, I'm like, well, of course, because he's going there. to date her, yeah.Rich Terfry:[45:07] Now, in my mind, I see those lines, that verse. And it adds a little intrigue to the song, because I start to wonder, oh, is there actually a bit of an established relationship here?He's been to her house. Maybe there's more going on in this relationship than first meets the eye.Maybe. It's just, in my mind, raised as a question.Could go either way. Maybe there's more familiarity there there than we've been led to believe to this point or yeah there it is a littlecreepier than we first thought where he's you know the creepin' is goingbeyond the train and it's you know.Frank:[45:49] So we kind of talked about this a little bit before when we were listening to the song, but but what's your favorite part in the song? the Rod Stewart version.Rich Terfry:[46:00] Well I'll say something controversial okay and let me give you a little contextbefore I say this, I'm dropping a bomb here. I know you know this, but I'm a Tom Waits fan.And I like a lot of his recent work.Although I would probably say my three favorite,Tom Waits albums is this trilogy that is sort of before us here today, Rain Dogs, Swordfishtrombones,and Frank's Wild Years.Frank:[46:32] Which I don't think he really captured all of my wild years in that album, but you know.Rich Terfry:[46:37] Who could? No, really. In one album.But I'm the type of guy, the weirder Tom Waits gets,the more I like him. And if I was listening to, I hate to say this, but if I'm listening to Rain Dogs in the car, there might be days where a downtown train comes on.I might skip it.Bill:[47:01] This is shocking.Rich Terfry:[47:03] So, where I'm going with this, my point is,me being the kind of music listener that I am,for as strange as it is, the unusual coda at the end of Rod Stewart's version is where it starts to get interesting for me. It's like, oh, what's going on here?He's got a little trick up his sleeve here.He's not the one trick pony that maybe you might,paint him as. It's like, oh, now wait a minute. And was he inspired by Tom Waits to, you know, kind of explore some more interesting terrainat the end of the song. And maybe it's safer to kind of put it at the end.But I get excited when something makes me raisean eyebrow a little bit. I like when someone's willing to go there a little bitor experiment a bit. So although I can appreciate what,he did with the song, where he took it, that he turned it into a hit, it's interesting to comparein contrast his voice, his vocal chops to Tom Waits.But I'm actually intrigued. If Rod Stewart walked in the door right now, and I could ask him one question about the song, I'd be like, what's the deal with the outro on the song?To me, that's super interesting.Frank:[48:11] Yeah, okay, cool.Bill:[48:39] Most controversial moment in our podcast history. I think there no one has ever picked the the final coda Yeah, my favorite part of the rod stewart song is the party's not singing.Rich Terfry:[48:50] Well, how do you like them apples?Bill:[48:51] Let's do that. Yeah.Frank:[48:53] Well, that's my favorite part, too, except it's that musical bridge.Bill:[48:56] Oh, wow.[48:56] Okay, oh, is it after the carnival and heart attacks? is that rhythm? Okay.Frank:[49:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah, because there's a like a 30 second bridge there and the guitars coming in and it's a little orchestral and cinematic. And like it was always climbing, climbing, climbing. but that's when it gets steep.Rich Terfry:[49:09] Yeah, sure, absolutely.[49:14] And I should also mention, I'm a big time Jeff Beck Yardbirds fan.In terms of pure riffage, I'd probably pick him over a lot of guys, if not everybody.And so his inclusion on the song, that's pretty cool to me as well. Yeah.Frank:[49:58] Bill, favorite part?Bill:[49:59] I gotta say, when he says, oh baby, can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? I think that really is it. I just assumed he said it over and over throughout the song. He must have. Yeah, I like the Rod Stewart-isms. Yeah.Frank:[50:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it makes it his own.Rich Terfry:[50:13] And that's exactly what I was about to say. Yeah, that's that right there is where he...It's interesting the story you were telling when he was first listening to it and there a moment came where he felt that he was taking ownership of the the song and right there is where he sort of delivered on that promise.Frank:[50:33] So we usually jump into categories towards the towards the last third of the podcast. So I've prepared rich.Should we do our mixtapes? You have a mixtape? I'm gonna let you guys go first and then I'll finish things off I have about 12 songs that I potentially.Bill:[50:42] Oh, good. Yeah.[50:50] Oh, wow. Okay, I got a low list, but I like a guest going first. And we didn't mention this at the beginning, but Richard Fry's, AKA Buck65 for listeners, especially our Canadian listeners who will know.And so when I hear the word mixtape, I know, you know, not like I'm intimidated in a good way.Rich Terfry:[51:10] Well, and although I had a little known fact, I too covered a Tom Waits song once. I should say maybe more than once, but in 99 I released an album called Man Overboard and the original, it might be most fair to say demo version of that album, included a,cover of Singapore by Tom Waits, which didn't make the final cut of the album.And then live, I used to do a very deep cut Tom Wait song,called Tabletop Joe. But anyhow, yes, this is my whole thing, putting these mixed tapes together.And so I gave it some thought. Should we jump into it here? I find it, I bet you guys have found the same thing,is that this song, Rod Stewart's version of this song,routinely pops up on these lists, a bunch of them, on the internet of songs you didn't know were covers.Now to me, that's an interesting enough category. God knows I've talked about that sort of thing on my radio show plenty.But with this particular case, there'smore to it than just that.I think it fits into an even smaller category. And I wish there was more of this, where you have here.[52:32] Big-time bonafide mainstream pop star bringing into you know the spotlight and the mainstream consciousness what at best we might call sort of a cult figure.[52:50] Right? Tom Waits I mean you know he's not nobody but in in particular when we're looking at an album like Rain Dogs you know you ask the next person that walksdown the street hey ever heard Rain Dogs? I'll put 50 bucks on them saying no. Soknow he's he's not I don't know if you could call Tom Waits a household name. I think of him in,particular the parts of his catalog that I love the most. To me I almost think of him as an underground type character, certainly a cult figure, and if not in the strictest definition of it,if you look at his body of work and maybe what inspired him and what he was interested in he'sHe's certainly coming from the deeps, you know what I mean? So maybe at best you could argue that he was an experimenterand whatever else who had more success with it than a lot of others. But nevertheless, I think that here wehave a case where sort of, I'm trying to think of the most fair word I can use,but maybe a slightly more fringy musician is being brought into the mainstream.because a lot of the other songs that you would find on those lists of songs you didn't know were coversaren't necessarily that.I'm trying to think of a good example, but if you look at.[54:12] I Love Rock and Roll by Joan Jett, the Arrows, who wrote and recorded the original version, were a fairly successful band in their own right.And you see a lot of that on those sorts of lists.So this situation got me thinking of other cases where this was the case. case and I really wish that there were more examples of it because to me it's super interestingand exciting and more often you see it the other way around where and hopefully this isn't too,flippant a way to put it but where like an indie band will do kind of an ironic cover of some big,pop it that happens all the time sometimes it makes me roll my eyes but this is much moreinteresting and and the stakes are a little higher where a big time pop star will take a more obscure fringy, culty, whatever, however you want to describe it, person and cover them. So I came upwith a couple examples and I don't know if they're quite as strong as today's example but I'll throwout there and this one is very similar parallel I would say Eric Clapton'sversion of Cocaine by JJ Kale.[55:23] JJ Cale, if you're going to compare anyone to Tom Waits, you know, if you're going to put anyone else in a category, maybe it's a guy like JJ Cale and Rod Stewart and Eric Clapton. I mean, not that,far off, right? So it's a very, very close, you know, kind of thing. Now, I don't know if you,know that The Tide is High by Blondie is a cover, but the original version of that song was by a,relatively small, certainly on an international level.[55:58] It was a Jamaican band called the Paragons,and I don't think they really had any success outside of Jamaica at all.Bill:[56:03] Wow, okay, I didn't know this either.Rich Terfry:[56:05] Really super interesting to me that the guys in Blondie even knew this song. Someone would really have to know their stuff,to know the Paragons and maybe this song in particular. To my knowledge, and I could be wrong about this,have to look it up but I don't even know I have the out the Paragon's album I don't know if their version was even ever released as a single so to me it extra super interesting maybe a real classic and one that does turn up onthese lists fairly often the birds version of turn turn turn or whatever by,Pete Seeger right so you're taking something from a you know I guess aslightly more fringy genre, you know, kind of deep folk music and turning it into a big pop hit.I got a couple other good ones. This one is another fairly well-known case, but RobertaFlax, Killing Me Softly, is a cover of an extremely little-known song. What's her name?Lori Lieberman, I think, who originally, you know, singer, LA singer-songwriter, kind of played at the Troubadour, it never really became famous. The story goes that Roberta Flack just heard it,kind of on a total fluke and loved it. And then of course there's the whole other wave, the Fugees,Yeah. covering it again decades later and making it a hit all over again.Frank:[57:29] Because I remember we did, I forget which song it was, but it was a cover song. And then I said, you know, famous cover songs, where the the cover is more popular than the original.And I said, Fuji is covering Roberta Flack. And then afterwards, finding out that it was Laura Lieberman or just, I was wrong on the podcast.And that never happens.I've never said anything that was infactual on the podcast.Rich Terfry:[57:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.Bill:[57:55] Yeah, we can insert it. Don't worry. No one will know.Rich Terfry:[57:59] I'll throw out one more for you and then I'll and then I'll pass the mic as you.[58:05] Will. No, no, no. But and this one is a little more obscure, but a great example of what I'm talking about, I suppose. But What a Man by Salt and Pepper is,basically a cover. You might argue that it's like an interpretation, but it's,pretty darn close to a cover of a sort of a soul song by a woman named Linda Lindell.Let me double check that. I did write it down because I want to be sure, but I'm pretty sure it's Linda Lindell. Yes, Linda Lindell.It was just released as a 45, just sort of a one-off single.I don't even know if Linda Lindell ever recorded a full-length album.So not well-known, pretty obscure figure, of course. and Salt and Pepper had a bunch of hits.That might have been their biggest one. That was a big old hit. So, and you know, certainly another case where songs you didn't know were covers.And super interesting that, you know,this one sort of turns the tables a little bit in that, you know, we're talking aboutwhat was like, you know, kind of a soul song. Fairly sort of, you know, mainstream in its presentation,but then here's a hip hop group doing it. That in itself is a bit of a rarity,a hip hop group kind of taking on a cover.[59:26] But nevertheless, at this point in their career, Sal and Pepper, they were big pop stars,very well established, and like I said, they turned that into a big hit. So that was the first thing that popped into mind for me was, again, I don't know if it's the exact right word,but fringier artists being brought into the mainstream with a cover, because that doesn't happen a lot.In fact, those were really the only examples of thatthat I could find.I'm sure there are more, and if anyone can think of more, I'd love to hear them, because this is the sort of thing that really excites me.Frank:[1:00:01] Right into the right please someone write us please someone tell us something yeah but it's really cool because there's all sorts of like musical gems out there that no one knows about.Rich Terfry:[1:00:04] Yes.Drop us a line.Frank:[1:00:16] Like or sorry I shouldn't say no one but there it's not as well known and then these pop stars are are bringing them out to the forefront.And sometimes these artists can gain a second life because of it.Rich Terfry:[1:00:29] Now in the early days of rock and roll, this happened all the time, of course, right? So you think like Elvis doing,well practically every song Elvis did the early days of his career was a cover of a song recorded by some lesser known, usuallya blues artist or R&B artist or something like that.But I digress.Bill:[1:00:49] I gotta say this is a big moment for me just as a radio listener because Rich Terfry does the (is it called the drive?) from about (is it three to seven?) okay so three to seven on CBC Radio Two.Rich Terfry:[1:00:57] Yeah.Bill:[1:01:03] And i would listen to it around i think is it around six o'clock that you would do the deep dive like on a friday or is it okay last hour of the show and there'd be this deep dive and.Rich Terfry:[1:01:09] Yeah, right. last hour of the show.Bill:[1:01:14] And it was my favorite part. And so- Well, the stories. Oh, it is great.Frank:[1:01:15] Oh yeah. Well the stories.Bill:[1:01:18] And so even if it was having a bad day at work and I knew I had to be leaving at six to go home, but I knew I could get this.And that was like my favorite part of the show. So I always wanted to find these deep dives. Like, so the one day you did a deep dive,on a tragically hip album, because you did every album. That's right. And so it was on Phantom Power and I was, didn't want to come out of the car,because I knew I wouldn't be able to find it because I'm like, there's gotta be, so I go online, rich to fry deep dives, like they're not available, I want like, you know,maybe a box set, it would be great for me personallyor for the world, but we just got our own personal deep dive.Frank:[1:01:54] Yeah, which is fantastic.Rich Terfry:[1:01:55] Yeah, man.Bill:[1:01:56] Yeah, so that leads to my couple songs. I may be jumping on Frank's toes here, maybe,but because we think similarly, and this was the easiest way to do this,was originally I was thinking of train songs, But then I thought of songs that were like the vibe in Tom Waits, but then were coveredso that they were kind of cheesier, but I couldn't, it wasn't coming up for me.So I ended up thinking of a couple train songs that were so similar.Because we were 12, I only have like three. So the most obvious one for me is Downbound Train by Bruce Springsteen, because it sounds so similar, downbound and downtown.And there's that longing and depression within the song that is kind of in the Tom Waits song.Well, there's something more joyous,even in the Tom Waits version, compared to the Bruce Springsteen.[1:02:55] But thinking of Rod Stewart's cover as very Rod Stewart,this is almost like Bruce Springsteen going,more Bruce Springsteen than usual to me in the song.Like sometimes he mutters his lines in a way that Ben Stiller would imitate Bruce Springsteen.So I liked the song. And so that was one. There was another one called Downbound Train by Chuck Berry, which was about the devil taking a guy to hell.Okay. And then there was another one called Night Train.There's a Bruce Cockburn one, which I love, but I went with the James Brown version because it was a bit more upbeat.Frank:[1:03:28] So I went straight planes trains and automobiles. That's the theme of my of my uh, well, it's modes of transportation. Bicycle Race by Queen. This has nothing to do with any sort of feel. It's justthis is the theme. Modes of transportation. Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. Oh, I know right.Rich Terfry:[1:03:47] Modes of transport.Bill:[1:03:48] So, I'm going to go ahead and do a little bit of a,That's okay.Frank:[1:03:54] Midnight train to Georgia, Gladys Knight in the Pips, Pink Cadillac, Bruce Springsteen.Bill:[1:04:00] Very good.Frank:[1:04:02] Runaway Train, Soul Asylum, Aeroplane by Bjork, Get Out of My Dreams Get Into My Car by Billy Ocean, and then we are going to finish it off with Hands by Jewel.Bill:[1:04:16] Oh, no, no. You don't, that's not funny. And no, you don't walk in your hands somewhere. No, not funny. No.Frank:[1:04:17] Okay, okay, we won't put jewel on we'll put Train In Vain by The Clash.Rich Terfry:[1:04:26] You.Bill:[1:04:33] That's a good call. We haven't talked about another iconic performer we bring up most episodes.Frank:[1:04:40] The patron saint of Bill and Frank's Guilt-Free Pleasures. Yeah. Rich, your opinion. Could Michael Bolton sing this song?Rich Terfry:[1:04:48] Hmm oh downtown train yes I think so.Frank:[1:04:53] I think so, too.Rich Terfry:[1:04:54] I feel like I didn't even need to think about it long I can hear it in his voice almost immediately.Frank:[1:04:59] Especially at the end, like after that bridge that when when he's just repeating the chorus at the end, and he just sort of brings it up. That's when Michael Bolton destroys the world though, though, where he goes full Bolton and just ends the world.Bill:[1:05:11] Oh, yeah, and that Michael Bolton in 1989 is is a then is that when we got?Frank:[1:05:17] Oh, this is right in the that's right in the meat of the MichaelBolton sandwich. So I have in front of me here the the Grammys,for best male pop vocal performance, because DowntownTrain was nominated in 1991. Lost to Roy Orbison's Pretty,woman. But Michael Bolton was on that list, Georgia on my mind.The year before Michael Bolton won for How Am I Supposed to LiveWithout You. The subsequent year, Michael Bolton wins 1992 for,When a Man Loves a Woman. But I'm looking at the list of the.Rich Terfry:[1:05:52] Right. How could he not?Frank:[1:05:56] Songs that were nominated in 91. Oh my goodness, how do you pick?So Roy Orbison wins for Pretty Woman. Another Day in Paradise,Phil Collins, Georgia on my mind, Michael Bolton. I Don't Havethe heart James Ingram who's critically under appreciated in my mind Stormfrontby Billy Joel and then Downtown Train by Rod Stewart 1991 I think was I think.Bill:[1:06:18] 1991? I thought this song came out in 89.Frank:[1:06:22] Was released in 90.Bill:[1:06:24] Oh right, because they would release it for so long. I got this all wrong.Rich Terfry:[1:06:27] Grammys are often, you know, a little behind.Bill:[1:06:29] Oh yeah, yeah sure. Yeah, that's right. So this comes out in 1990. Oh wow, I gotta to re- rethink about how I heard the song for the first time. I'm 14 then. That's a whole other world.Frank:[1:06:38] Yeah, that's a that's a different world.[1:06:40] Anyways, yeah, 100%. This could have been a Michael Bolton song. Could this be a Hallmark movie?Could easily become a creepy Hallmark movie.Bill:[1:06:51] Hallmark after dark.Rich Terfry:[1:06:52] Does Hallmark do creepy movies?Frank:[1:06:56] Yeah, I don't like them.Rich Terfry:[1:06:59] I mean, you know, there's some sort of romance, obviously, at the heart of this thing.So from that standpoint, like I said, if you went with the interpretation I've had where the third verse comes along, you think, oh, wait a minute, maybe these people,maybe these two know each other. Maybe it's the early days of a relationship or something,you know, in which case, maybe. But I'm with you in that, you know, it's more Scorsese, even, but Taxi Driver vibes,that hallmark. And if a hallmark movie set in New York, you know, it's like.Bill:[1:07:28] Yeah, I don't think that downtown train is taking them out to the country to like find themselves.Frank:[1:07:33] No, exactly.Rich Terfry:[1:07:38] Upper West Side, not Brooklyn.Frank:[1:07:40] Yeah, yeah. What other categories do we have?Bill:[1:07:44] You know.[1:07:44] I just thought out the top of my head when I was listening to the ending that you could do a pretty good floor routine To this song with that final moments. Yeah. Oh no with the with the thing with the.Rich Terfry:[1:07:54] Rhythmic gymnastics.[1:07:55] Yeah.Bill:[1:07:55] With the yeah yeah rhythmic gymnastics would work especially at the finalmoments where everyone's watching them the final sway.Rich Terfry:[1:08:01] And you're thinking just based on the gestures I'm seeing here, the ribbon.Bill:[1:08:04] Yeah it's all ribbon yeah yeah maybe some leaping it could be yeah I don't.Rich Terfry:[1:08:06] Yeah. It's all ribbon. Okay.[1:08:10] Maybe something like that. Thank you.Bill:[1:08:12] Know why I do this on a podcast but I'm I sometimes will talk with my hands yeah.Frank:[1:08:15] Can see if you can see Bill right now he's he's rhythmically flailing his arms about.Bill:[1:08:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah.Frank:[1:08:38] So we're bringing the the episode to a close and rich we just yeah thanks so much for bringing yourself and your knowledge and the insight not just to the song but musically in general and most especially telling us what a bridge is so that ended,over a year long debate in our minds.Rich Terfry:[1:08:58] I almost hate to ruin it for you, but this is fun. Have me by again sometime. I'd love to.Frank:[1:09:04] This would be fantastic. Yeah. And we want to thank the listeners for sticking it out right to the end. And, you know, we know you have it on your phones and on your computersand all that other sort of stuff. And you listen to it to the podcast wherever you are. And just wondering, will we see you tonight on a downtown train?Bill:[1:09:29] Thank you for listening to Bill and Frank's Guilt-Free Pleasures.
 

Fleetwood Mac: ”Everywhere” (A Bullet-Proof Pop Song)

[Transcript included at the end of these show notes]
Fleetwood Mac's "Everywhere" is one of the greatest pop songs ever. Although forged in tumultuous times, "Everywhere" sounds like it comes straight from heaven. 
Thanks for spending your time with us! Follows, ratings, and recommendations are always appreciated!
Helpful links mentioned in the episode:
Our mixtape
The demo
That awful video
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Masadon, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist featuring every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn.
Transcript
(easier to read on our website)
Bill:[0:07] Let me set the stage for you, Frank. It's 2011.Frank:[0:11] Okay, like now or then? Gotcha.Bill:[0:13] Then, so bring yourself back to 2011.Frank:[0:19] 34 years old? Oh, what was I doing?Bill:[0:23] I know what I was doing.Frank:[0:25] Oh, yeah, that's right.Bill:[0:26] I was pining. So it's somewhere in March and I'm wondering if things are going to work out with me and,Ashley because we're not back together yet. It's been this seven year stretch and things look like they're promising but there are no kind of guarantees.Frank:[0:44] Yeah.Bill:[0:52] She's actually living in France.dating somebody else.Frank:[0:58] So there's a lot of obstacles stacked up against you.Bill:[1:03] Yeah, I got some, I got a bit of faith.[1:09] And that's, that's what I had going for me. Gumption.Frank:[1:12] Yeah engumption yes.Bill:[1:16] Yeah, that's right. I had gumption. So it's my like week off from school and our great friend of the podcast, our mentor, Chris Newkirk,says to me, hey, I got to go back to the States. Do you want to drive with me? I got to go for the week. It's your holiday.Why don't we drive down and you can do we road trip it?Frank:[1:38] And just road trip it. Yeah, nice.Bill:[1:40] So I went with on this road trip with Chris Newkirk. And at one point we're doing a drive from New Jersey to Pennsylvania.And he said, you know what? I have an iPod. He had an actual one of those old iPods, not even a phone, just iPod full of music.Frank:[1:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had one of those up until about two years ago when it was stolen out of my car.Bill:[1:59] Because when we play a game.[2:03] That's right.Frank:[2:04] Just so you know.Bill:[2:05] Yeah, that's right. No, of course not. So he said, why don't we play three songs each?Frank:[2:06] It's not that old. It's not that uncommon, Bill.Bill:[2:11] You pick three songs and you could set it up in queue and then he'd pick three songs in queueand so that would be our way to kind of get things moving on our journey. And so I'm looking through his music which of course is way cooler than mine so I'm like I don't know this Smith song,I don't know this Pure song. So I'm desperately trying to find a song that I could put on also to impress him because we're always kind of trying to impress him. And then I see this song,Fleetwood Max everywhere.And I think to myself, oh, I remember this song.I was a kid, I loved this song. So I put it on the queue and then those opening notes come out or what would we call it? Opening beats.Frank:[2:55] Notes. I think you were right the first time.Bill:[2:56] Notes. Notes. I think you were right the first time.Okay. And suddenly everything is right in the world. And I say to him, everything about this song,is what makes life beautiful, something like that. I had this like profound moment that everything is gonna be okay.This is the most joy I have felt. And suddenly when I heard this song, it brought back feelings of being a kid and full of wonder.And it brought back sort of memories of just straight up hopefulness.And then I knew things would be okay. And so within the week, things are looking good. I'm engaged to Ashley by June, we're married.And then flash forward 11 years later, you're sitting amongst a ton of toys and blocks.And I apologize, there was a diaper right at your feet. We couldn't figure out why this place smelled like sewage.My apologies, but this is the life. This is everywhere to me.Frank:[3:57] In your defense, you didn't smell it because you're nose-blind. But no, this is a good place to be, and I'm glad that we can do this podcast everywhere.Bill:[4:12] Christine McVie just passed away recently. So people have been commenting on social media and in the news about how she really was.Frank:[4:14] Yeah, yeah.Bill:[4:24] One of the great songwriters of the past 40 yearsin a sense. And with Fleetwood Mac, we love to talk about,the Buckingham Knicks thing, the kind of craziness surrounding their albums,but she was the sort of steady hand in terms of making consistently great songs.Frank:[4:44] Yeah, so after her passing, I found I was listening to the radio and they did this little thing talking about Christine McVie and how she joined the band.So I don't know if you if you heard this necessarily.So she she's married to the bass player John McVie,but she has her own solo thing going on. But the tensions of like, two artists, you know, separately on the road doing different things.She kind of took a backseat and decided like, you know, I'm gonna give up my solo career and,I'm gonna be a wife. I'm gonna try and like that this marriage is too important like I'm gonna make the sacrifice and and just like I'll give up music as my career and,Then I can't remember which album it was but they're in this cabin and they're,No, no, sorry. It was it was for a tour,tour. They're in this cabin and they're just kind of rehearsing and performing and allthis. And she's sitting there just on the sidelines. She knows all the songs because she's been with the band for as long as they've been together at this cabin rehearsing, gettingready for this tour. And then at the last minute, it was just like, hey, do you want,Wanna just join the band?Bill:[5:58] And so that's 1970. She joins Fleetwood back in 1970. By 1971, she's writing and singing in Fleetwood Mac.And she stays right through, you know, you have Buckingham Nicks joining,right through this album, Tango in the Night.And then there was still behind the mask and time, albums in the 90s, she was still there.And still writing actually pretty good music for albums that were not strong. She still was the sort of steady hand.And then she was there for the reunion, retired, but then came back around, I think it was around 2014 or something like that. So she's back in the band and still playing up until recently.And so she's had an incredible career,and still released a pretty good album with Lindsay Buckingham a few years ago called Christine McVee, Lindsay Buckingham, although Buckingham McVee would have sounded way cooler.Frank:[6:52] Yeah, a little bit on the nose with the title of the album, right?Yeah. But yeah, to say that Fleetwood Mac's history of personality is tumultuous, I think is aslight understatement.Bill:[7:05] Oh my goodness. So, I mean, I dove deep for the last few days into the history of Fleetwood Mac and you can find it. You can find all these stories and it is a tale of massive excess. It's just insane.All the things I was warned about with heavy metal groups, I didn't realize Fleetwood Mac was way, oh man, it is insane.It's just insane. Just reading about the amount of drugs consumed and the amount of money spent and wasted is crazy.So we all know that, or if you don't know that, you can just look into it. so we won't dive into it.Frank:[7:44] Yeah, just just Google Fleetwood Mac Gong show and then it's something you'll get the whole history.Bill:[7:51] So Tango in the Night, which is this album, this was originally supposed to be Lindsey Buckingham's third solo album. He's working on it. He has three songs that are decent songs,Big Love, Caroline, and I think maybe Tango in the Night. I think that those are three songs he's already working on.And they ask him to come back and do a Fleetwood Mac album.So this is, I think, the record company. So his solo career is not taking off like Stevie Nicks and Christine McVie had a great album in the eighties.You really got a hold on me. Do you remember that song?Frank:[8:29] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, big.Bill:[8:30] So good. So good. She's just so steady. And Lindsay Buckingham, I think might have produced it.Either way, Buckingham's just like, okay, I'll put my solo aspirations on hold for the sake of the band.And because he's Lindsay Buckingham, He just can't go in there and play his music. He needs to kind of take over.So whoever was producing, they just ended up saying, okay, why don't you leave? Lindsay Buckingham, Richard Dashett will come in.They're gonna produce. And so there's these stories about it. And basically it's just super depressing,how much work they put in. They put in 18 months of nonstop work. It's insane. And Lindsay Buckingham is a perfectionist, but he's also experimenting with some synthesizers.the Fairlight program we've talked about, he's experimenting with that.He's doing so much. And so every song he'd spend weeks and weeks and weeks on.[9:27] So let's head into the backstory. They ended up recording at his house a lot of the time.And that wasn't good for Stevie Nicks, who was coming out of, who just came out of rehab, she wouldn't have gone in during it.And going to her ex-boyfriend's house to record didn't make her feel well. And he's, I don't think he has like a great bedside manner anyways, Mick Fleetwood and the others ended up renting an RVand stationing it in the driveway so they could go out ofhis house and do whatever it is they're doing.Like it sounded just like a mess. Often they would talk about how you have the sixties and they're doing all the experimenting.And then the seventies is a lot of cocaine.And the eighties, the drugs aren't working and that cocaine's now controlling the people more than they're using it to make their music. And this is what's going on.Like it's just a mess. And Buckingham talks about how they're all at their worst point when they're recording this album.I don't know much about Christine McVie in terms of this, but she brought these songs that are wonderful to this album.Frank:[10:33] She wrote some great songs for the album. Like there's this song in Little Lies, which is...Bill:[10:38] Which are the two greatest songs on the album to me.Frank:[10:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely there.Bill:[10:43] The amazing thing is her two songs that she brought, Little Lies and Everywhere are thethird and fourth singles. You'd think they would be the lead singles. So, yeah. So the first two singles are Big Love and Seven Wonders, which are good.Frank:[10:49] They're so good.[10:51] Yeah. Well, I know, right? They're so good.Bill:[10:59] It's just so weird. whole time is weird because they those songs didn't stand the test of time in In terms of us, I like them. I like them all. I really like this album.Frank:[11:07] Well, in the context of those songs, like I don't or barely remember them.But Little Eyes and Everywhere, yeah, in a heartbeat. say Everywhere Fleetwood Mac? Yeah, I know exactly the song you're talking about andI know that it's awesome. Same with Little Lies.Bill:[11:24] Yeah. So whatever went on in production, they don't have like an interview where they talk about this. But there's a demo, which wasn't released on the deluxe edition, but I found it on YouTube.Frank:[11:30] Yeah.Bill:[11:37] So I'm assuming the demo was done by Buckingham and McVie. She brings it. He does some things to,it, but he hasn't done the full Buckingham to it. So I'm gonna play this for you. He hasn't bucking.Frank:[11:49] Yeah. He hasn't Buckinghammed it.Bill:[11:51] Their new verb. Okay. I'm going to play a little bit of it for you. So you can hear the beginnings of it, but it doesn't have that special quality.Frank:[12:02] It's really quite raw. It's missing a lot of the final touches, but you can feel hints of them.So when we played this song, it sounds magical.It sounds like a fantasy.Bill:[12:15] Yeah. Well, this is it. This is why the song is so perfect. is it creates this sort of fairy-like world where people,you can almost just see fireflies around you while the song is going on. So Richard Dashett, who is the co-producer, by co-producer, he was the encourager of Buckingham.Like he's really good about this when he talks about it. He said, I know my role.There's gonna be, Buckingham is the guy. So I'm there to support him and to kind of listen and do it.He said that the beginning that we always talk about is a half speed acoustic guitar and an electric guitar combined.And then, yeah, McV said, Buckingham slowed the tape down really slowly. So they did this all over the album, slows it down and played the part slowly.Then when it came to the right speed,it sounded bloody amazing. So whatever he was doing, he was playing with both acoustic and electric over top of each other and altering the speeds.Frank:[13:10] Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. Yeah.Bill:[13:12] And so he does this actually with like voices too. Sometimes he uses his voice to become a female voice.Yeah, there's all these things going on. So even the voices in this song, I'm not sure who they are.And so, but apparently it is Stevie Nicks because she got into a big fight with him because she thought that he took her vocalsoff of this song.Stevie Nicks only showed up for two weeks to do any recording of this 18 month process. So just to put that out there, so Stevie Nicks is kind of to say the least.Frank:[13:36] Oh, tumultuous.Bill:[13:42] But anyways, we got everywhere out of this time and everywhere is perfect.Frank:[13:47] Yeah, yeah if it took 18 months to get everywhere I'm okay with that.Bill:[13:52] All right, so the opener, we got that already down. This is magical, this is perfect.Frank:[13:57] Yeah, because it's a song about those first sort of throws of being in love.Bill:[13:58] And so this is one of those things where the lyrics, they're just pretty straightforward, which she does well, but she also is able to kind of take in these sort of, the emotions of love.And she's really good at singing about this feeling in love.Frank:[14:20] And that really giddy sort of euphoric feeling you feel.And it's childlike and funand everything's great and fantasticand the world could be crumbling around you but you're in love. So you're smiling and you're happy.Bill:[14:35] And what she say here, she says, Can you hear me calling out your name? You know that I'm falling and I don't know what to say.I'll speak a little louder. I'll even shout.You know that I'm proud and I can't get the words out.So, okay.Basically, when you're feeling this, everything seems right to say, or you have nothing to say.That sound makes sense? I'm trying to find the words myself and I can't find them.Frank:[14:59] Yeah.I can't mark. Just going through those lyrics. But like I immediately went back.There's that scene in Anchorman when Ron Burgundy is falling in love.It's like, I'm in love with Veronica Corningstone and I don't care who knows it.It's just like, did I say that loudly? It's like, yeah, Ron, you pretty much shouted it.That's that feeling, right? Like you don't care who knows.Yeah.Bill:[15:20] I think that does speak of my 2011. Like I was just so, it just set everything in motion. And then it leads to that chorus with all those voices.Frank:[15:30] Yeah.[15:31] And it's layered, right?Bill:[15:32] Yeah.Frank:[15:34] And it's soft and it's not saying a whole lot.It's just repeating the same line twice, but it's so effective and you can feel it.Bill:[15:47] I can't say this enough about how his instinctsas a producer are right on the money. So he'll make his songs kind of complicated or difficult at times to listen to.They're not that difficult, but he knows that there is this sort of pure beauty to what she's doing.And he just highlights it and adds to it and does creative things, but they're all about this dreamlike feel,which he does in Little Eyes as well. It's just so incredible. And I don't know how many times he's layering voices what he's doing but I can guess just from the sounds of it. It's so pleasing to our ears but,it might have been a month of a nightmare for these other co-producers and engineers who are,just watching him. That's right the one producer used the following two words to describe the.Frank:[16:34] If they have to suffer for my pleasure, I'm okay with that.Bill:[16:41] Experience trauma. Still thank you it was worth it. The only other verse really because then they.Frank:[16:44] Yeah, exactly. Yeah.Bill:[16:52] Start repeating things but something's happening, happening to me, my friend's saying I'm acting peculiarly. Come on baby. Did I say peculiarly right? Sure. Okay. I'm gonna say yes. Come on baby.Frank:[17:02] Line, the Pekirulu.Bill:[17:06] We better make a start. You better make it soon before you break my heart.Frank:[17:10] That you said, Pekirulu,that's a good one.Bill:[17:16] Yeah.Frank:[17:17] That P word that you said, peculiar. Oh my goodness.Bill:[17:22] Peq- Oh, how did she say it? Peq-ular-ly. Yeah.Frank:[17:25] Yeah, yeah. But it's, my friends have me saying,I'm acting this way. And that's like, when you're kind of, again, giddy in love.I feel like I should write a song called Giddy in Love.It'll be like the spiritual sister to Crazy in Love by Beyonce.Anyways, when you're giddy in love,yeah, you're acting a little bit different.Like, you know, you're happy, you're bouncy,you're kind of doing goofy things, I find. Like, I know that's the way I've been, like when I'm kind of really into someone and they're into me and things are going good,before everything just falls apart.Bill:[18:07] Yeah, then it's a different song. I think that song you're looking for is Nowhere.Frank:[18:11] Yeah. That song's like every other song we've done on the podcast.Bill:[18:18] That's right.[18:19] This is a brief moment of levity.Frank:[18:20] I know, right? Yeah, so, you know, we'll do a breakup song again pretty quick, I'm sure.Bill:[18:21] I know. Thank you for bringing it back down.[18:26] Oh yeah, no question.She did co-write this with Jonas David Kroeper.I'm giving his full name just because it's on my songwriting sheet here. but that was her husband at the time.So this is about their love and their early love, so much joy and...Frank:[18:41] Yeah, yeah, he was he was also a keyboard player, right?Bill:[18:44] Okay, well then that, maybe that explains...Frank:[18:46] Because I think they married shortly after the recording of this album.Bill:[18:50] Okay, right, so they're already in this sort of love.Frank:[18:52] Yeah, this this giddy stage.Bill:[18:54] She has a tendency to do that with certain songs. By tendency, I mean she wrote one other song like that.So rumors she wrote, you make love and fun, which was about her affair or relationship,with the lighting guy in Fleetwood Mac. But she told John McVie it was about her dog so that he wouldn't get suspicious or angry.Oh man, so everywhere it was not about her dog. This is about this happy new relationship,and this marriage that was coming. The power beyond those lyrics, of course, is just the sounds.It's what Buckingham is doing with those sounds.Frank:[19:31] I read a quote saying that it's a bulletproof pop song, which I will not disagree with.The song's, what, 87 it came out, so we're 36 years after this song comes out,and it still plays, and it's still bouncy and fun and poppy and great. It's not contemporary to in 2022, but it still plays.Bill:[19:55] It not only still plays, Like it shows up in commercials in the UK and then re charts at like got to number 15 recently.Frank:[20:02] Yeah, it was used for a Chevrolet electric vehicle commercial recently.Bill:[20:09] And there are a lot of bands that have kind of,arisen in the last decade, like Vampire Weekend,there's been more than a decade I know. Paramore, there's a bunch of other bands too, who've looked towards Tango in the Night as their inspiration.They talk about it and everywhere is covered by Vampire Weekend and Perron More.Frank:[20:27] Yeah, and Paramore, yeah.Bill:[20:29] So I think it is getting its due. And when you see like the top 50 songs, or Rolling Stone did the top 50 songs of Fleetwood Mac, this was number five. So I think it's not an unsung hero. People are realizing how incredible it is.It's still incredible to me that this is the fourth single. So if I had to choose between these two, I would put this ahead of Little Lies. I like Little Lies, but everywhere is the one. I can't believe this wasn't the lead-off single.Frank:[20:56] Yeah, oh I know. And it charted relatively well. It was 14 on the US Billboard Top 100.But I mean, ultimately, the Bill and Frank's guilt-free pleasure, the only chart we really care about is the adult contemporary chart, right?Bill:[21:14] Straight to number one, baby. So, and we brought this up before, even though I charted 14, whatever was number one that week.Frank:[21:16] Straight to number one.[21:24] I don't even know.Bill:[21:24] I know I don't even care because this is the one.Frank:[21:25] I don't care!Bill:[21:28] That endures, because it was played all the time.Frank:[21:30] I don't want to, you know, jump the gun here, but this is a roller rink song.Bill:[21:30] At least when I was a kid, I remember it. And so just hearing the, oh my goodness,there's so many bits and pieces to that song.[21:44] Yeah. Oh yeah. This is perfect. Roller rinks still around late 80s? Okay. Would you put, would you roller skate to this at Prudhommes Landing? Did you ever roller skate at Prudhams?Frank:[21:46] I think so.Yeah, I roller skated in the early 90s even.I mean, I would if I was cool enough to roller skate at Prudhommes Landing.No, no.Bill:[22:05] Oh man, this is a call back to our Prudhommes Landing episode. Just songs that remind you of.Frank:[22:11] If you don't know what you're talking about, just listen to all of our previous.Bill:[22:15] Yeah.Frank:[22:15] Episodes and eventually you'll get get the reference. No, no, no, no, don't tell them I'm trying to get listens here.Bill:[22:18] So in Gloria Stefan's bad boy, it's a, Oh, well we can get them straight to bad boy and we can see the, okay.Frank:[22:25] But I'm trying to get them to listen to everything.Bill:[22:27] Either way, if you don't know Prudhommes Landing, well, you'll know this is the summer song, not to jump into a category. We are there for jumping into these categories.Frank:[22:35] We're jumping into categories.Bill:[22:36] So, all right. I see this as a perfect breezy summer day.Frank:[22:44] Yes, absolutely.Bill:[22:46] Also, I could see this as snow falling close to Christmas. This could be like a Christmas song.Frank:[22:52] It's an all-season song.Bill:[22:53] It is because it just will make whatever situation you're in brighter.Now, I'll tell you what's not bright is the music video.Frank:[23:04] Yeah, it's... not good.Bill:[23:06] Yeah, apparently there was two. I can't find this other version that is with Fleetwood, McV and McV.Because by the time Everywhere comes out, this is depressing, but Buckingham has left the band.So he had done all this work on the album And then it came down to them planning their tour.And he just said, I can't do it. And basically saying, I can't be around you guys. You guys are destructive.You're gonna die. I don't wanna die.And then Stevie Nicks lunged at him while they're in Christine McVie's mansion.And then he got so angry that he chased her. And she talked about, this is Stevie Nicks saying, she was running through the halls of this sort of house that was almost like, it feels like they're in some sort,of maze and he's chasing her and they're end up on the street, he's still chasing her and she's afraid for her life.Frank:[24:05] Oh, jeez! Oh!Bill:[24:06] And he throws her against a car and then she threatens to have him killed by her family.It's just awful. And this of course is bringing over their relationship from a decade earlier and it's awful. I imagine Christine McVie just sitting still there in the house and it's-Frank:[24:17] Yeah.Oh my goodness.[24:22] I just want to sing everywhere on stage.Bill:[24:24] I know, so he's already gone, he's left the band. And so by the time this video comes out, they film it without any members of the band.And they think, oh, everywhere, why don't we do like something that's like a ghost story, and we do the highway man as a music video.Now the highway man is that old poem, and you can watch the music video and it kind of just follows the story of it.But this does not work with the song at all, because there's like...Frank:[24:53] Not at all. It's not, it's a song about falling in love and being in love early on and when everything'sgood and fantastic and fun.Bill:[25:04] It's not about getting kidnapped, killed and then getting revenge and then being a ghost. Oh, that's insane. The only time I want to hear the Highwayman is from Anne Shirley when she's.Frank:[25:08] Yeah, by redcoats!Bill:[25:15] Doing her speech competition and Anna Green Gables. That's the most powerful version ofthe Highwayman. Everything else doesn't matter. Oh, I'm sure he is. Megan Follows, best Highwayman.Frank:[25:25] Is Gilbert in the audience watching?Bill:[25:31] And rendition, that might've occurred at the same time. Cause standing green gables I think came around then. Sorry, Fleetwood Mac, bad choice.Frank:[25:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.Bad choice, yeah.Bill:[25:39] Now, if you look at the cover of the single, this cover of the single has this sort of picture of someone whose arms are kind of open up to the world.Frank:[25:47] Oh, okay.Bill:[25:48] There's a planets star.It looks like the person who did the artwork for the little prince did the artwork for everywhere.It's perfect. It works exactly as it should. And that's what it should have been.Frank:[26:02] Yeah.[26:02] The video doesn't, yeah, it doesn't work.And if we're going to be critical of the video, so I watched it just once.And there's a bunch of scenes where like these British redcoats are running inside this cottagehouse or whatever it is. They're going up the stairs and it's clearly animated shadows on-so there's all these animated pieces that just like- it's like was your shadow guy on vacation?that's why you couldn't get the lighting right? I don't know. No, no, no, no, no.Bill:[26:31] It's not worthy of the song. The record company spent a boatload of money on producing this album, just like they've spent it on Tusk and other things. When oh, this is awful. This is side note,but when they would go to hotels in like the early 80s, they'd have them like bring in a grand piano.And if they couldn't get it through the doors, I don't know how you get through a hotel door,they have to like break open windows to get it in. They'd force them to repaint the walls white.so that they'd have white rooms like they were just the excess was ridiculous. That's crazy. But they didn't put any of that into this music video. No. No. No. No. How dare they? Okay.Frank:[27:08] No, no, no, no, no. How dare they? I mean, you know me, it's the chorus, right? But it's the opening of the chorus, the oh, like, I love that sustained. I right. I love that. And then I want to be with you everywhere. It's just so fun. I love it.Bill:[27:13] What's your favorite part of the song?[27:34] So that's what you're singing to in the car. Oh yeah. And you know me, I like doing backing vocals to the song so I'm doing whatever's going on in the background and trying to make those vocalizations.Frank:[27:36] Oh yeah, absolutely.[27:46] Well at the end of the chorus where it's like, I want to be with you everywhere.And then there's the sort of follow up, want to be with you everywhere.Bill:[27:53] Want to be with you everywhere. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Even thinking about that.Frank:[27:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah.Bill:[28:00] How could I pick a favorite part? Everything's perfect. Everything's great. Bulletproof. And the ending of the sort of vocals going back and forth. It's bubbly. It literally sounds like they're making bubbles to me. And it's just like, oh my goodness. Yeah. This is where.Frank:[28:02] Oh, I know.Proof Pop song.[28:14] Yeah, magical bubbles.Bill:[28:19] You go to dreamland. There's a picture of some sort of heaven where you have like grass just blowing in the wind, bubbles in the air, fairies dancing.Frank:[28:30] Yeah, people dancing with ribbons.Bill:[28:32] Yeah.[28:33] Yes. This is it. That leads us to a category pretty naturally.So for the talent show, you're going to be doing a floor routine.Frank:[28:41] Yeah.[28:41] Gymnastics floor routine with ribbons.Bill:[28:42] Yeah, gymnastics floor. Yeah, with the ribbons. Yeah. Yeah, that's that. This is easy.Frank:[28:44] Yeah. Yeah.Bill:[28:46] So there you go. Category check.Frank:[28:48] Check. Would you sing this at karaoke?Bill:[28:52] No, I don't think I could do it. It's so good that it demands this sort of perfection that I don't think I could even come near it.Frank:[28:57] I think the only way it could be done is if there's got to be someone taking the lead,but you need someone to harmonize on those choruses.Bill:[29:08] You better have someone incredible.Frank:[29:09] Yeah. I think Stevie Nicks would do karaoke with me, right?Bill:[29:14] Maybe but she might only show up for a few minutes like she did for this album.Frank:[29:19] Yeah. She showed up for enough for this album.Bill:[29:21] Oh, yeah. Okay. Hallmark movie. I have written here, no way. This needs to be a mainstream movie, not something on Hallmark TV, but this is a song that should.Frank:[29:28] Yeah?[29:28] Well, it has that, well, the opening magical like sort of dreamy sequence, right?Bill:[29:32] Be sort of like this heads in a mixtape territory. Remember when they'd play Dreams by Cranberries all the time to sort of set the stage?Forget Dreams. Play everywhere.Frank:[29:48] Well, Dreams had it too and it kind of had to because it was in the name,But also linger same same sort of a feel so I'm sure we'll do a cranberry song at some point too, but.Bill:[29:56] Our usual category, we, it keeps altering in different ways. Can Michael Bolton sing this song?Frank:[30:08] I think he can but I don't want to hear it.Bill:[30:10] No. What would Mariah Carey do to it? She would Mariah Carey it it would suck.Frank:[30:13] She would destroy this,Yeah, yeah, she I don't think she has the self-control not to go full Mariah on it.Bill:[30:23] Yeah, Celine Dion also I can't think of of anyone who could do it off the top of my head.Frank:[30:31] Also yeah.[30:32] There's a subtlety about the way that Christine McVie sings the vocals.Like she doesn't go over the top.She's a little bit reserved, like as much as it is like a fun happy song about beingin love, she's reserved and conservative with it.Bill:[30:49] She does have a very British way of being, if I could say that. Yeah. She did also the song. Do you remember song, Songbird from Rumors?Frank:[30:52] Yeah.Stiff upper lip.Bill:[31:01] They closed every concert with it. So Eva Cassidy, if you remember Eva Cassidy.Frank:[31:03] Uh, yes. Yeah.Bill:[31:06] She did a version of Songbird, which is near perfect. It probably is perfect. I still don'tknow if Eva Cassidy could have done everywhere because there needs to be a bounciness that I,I never pictured with her, but maybe she could have done it. But there is something special about Christine McVie is both unassuming, but also is in these grand songs because she can go along with Buckingham.They always got along. So Buckingham, notoriously difficult to get along with, but he never had a bad thing to say about McVieand vice versa. They could do albums together. They understood each other.And she wasn't into all the drama. I mean, she partied hard, but compared to the rest of Fleetwood Mac, I think she's a girl guide.Frank:[31:45] Yeah, the rest of them. Yeah, she was... Yeah.Bill:[31:48] And she was also with Dennis Wilson from, um, the beach boys for a while. Yeah. There's a whole, she's got her own backstory and sadness too, right?Frank:[31:52] Oh, really? Okay.Bill:[31:56] About all that stuff.Mix tape.Frank:[31:59] You're just going to name Ashley's album?Bill:[32:01] You want me to go first?So I decided in honor of the person who was the catalyst for this song, kind of coming back to my life and then defining my 2011.Frank:[32:16] You're just gonna name Ashley's album?Bill:[32:18] You're just.Oh yeah. Well, we love you too, Ashley. But I'm thinking of Chris Newkirk. I'm dedicating this to Chris Newkirk.Frank:[32:20] Oh, that's fantastic.Bill:[32:26] Sorry, Ashley.So. She'll never listen to this. She'll never listen to this. So these are songs that I heard while hanging out with Chris Newkirk in 2011.Frank:[32:31] She'll never listen to it.Bill:[32:40] Not all of them actually, but they made me think about Chris Newkirk and his love of this sort of big dreamy sort of pop song. Okay, so everywhere we'll open it of course.Frank:[32:52] I'm sorry.Bill:[32:56] There's a song called I L U by the school of seven bells. It is insane.And the woman who sings lead also passed away few years ago, but in her 30s, I think.Frank:[33:08] Okay, oh.[33:09] Yeah, so Bill just played the song for me and it'll be in the show notes, but my goodness they gave me goosebumpsbumps it's it's ethereal and and and dreamy and oh man that's good.Bill:[33:21] I heard that also on that same drive. Chris Newkirk. Wow.Great taste in music. And so also on the drive, we heard cloud busting by Kate Bush.I'm pretty sure that's like just so good.So hands of love from Kate Bush also inspired the production of Tango in the Night.So Kate Bush's style and her relentless drive was where Lindsay Buckingham waswas looking towards for making this. Also, I don't think I'll ever be able to pronounce this right, but one more Chris Newkirk, number three. Hoppipolla, Hoppipolla.Frank:[34:02] Happy pool! That doesn't sound at all at least.Bill:[34:05] Yeah, that doesn't sound at all like Sigur Ross, but it is.And it's a Sigur Ross, like the major song, which played when Chris and Jade, I think we're walking down the aisle after their wedding.Frank:[34:09] That's like a new song.[34:15] Oh really?Oh nice.Bill:[34:16] So incredible song. So we were just discussing this as I was playing it,but cinematic in scope as is all these songs, as as is everywhere.Okay, and then I threw a couple more in, Fleet Fox's Can I Believe You?And one more song, Everywhere by Brandvan 3000, which I love.Frank:[34:42] Was that on that trip too or no?Bill:[34:45] No, but I just think I should have played it on the trip. I don't know if he would have liked it. Do you remember everywhere? Yes. Oh, I don't know if it fits. However, you know, those first three were something else.Frank:[34:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.[34:57] Mix tapes are allowed to have an outlier, right?Bill:[35:01] Yeah, and maybe it transitions into yours.Frank:[35:03] All right. So my mixtape is, I tried to keep it like happy songs, like giddy songs, fun songs aboutfalling in love. So Walking on Sunshine by Katrina and the Waves. Butterflies by Kacey Musgraves.Bill:[35:13] Okay, oh good.[35:20] Okay not crazy town.Frank:[35:22] No, surprisingly not.Bill:[35:25] No, okay, great.Frank:[35:26] He just threw me right off there.Bill:[35:31] Yeah, sorry about that.Frank:[35:33] The way you are by Bruno Mars. Love is in the Air by John Paul Young and then wefinish it off with Sunshine Lollipops and Rainbows by Leslie Gore. Sunshinelollipops and rainbows everywhere that's how I feel when I feel that we're,together that's a and then finishing it off with the sunshine lollipops and.Bill:[36:00] Got it okay perfect well this mixtape just good thing i put in brandman 3000 it's just a transition straight to walking on sunshine oh good.Frank:[36:14] Rainbows.Bill:[36:15] Yeah, yeah. future I'm sure it's a future episode.Frank:[36:18] Well I'm sure yes so I before we before we came to record this song I wastalking to my friend Becca and saying, oh, we got to go.I got to go and record this podcast. And he's asking, what song are you doing?I said, Everywhere by Fleetwood Mac.And she said, I love that song. When her and her partner were in New Zealand, they had this this,crappy garbage car and that had a tape deck.So her and Blake went to a thrift store to buy tapes just to play.and they bought Tango in the Night and just listened to that on repeat and this was far andaway their favorite song on the album. I told Becca just like, all right I'm gonna tell that story if you're okay with it and well here it is it might actually make the cut.Bill:[37:06] I will and you know what? We don't often do these call-outs. I try to listen to other podcasts because often they're like, hey here's the name of our show which we... do we even say what we're called? Yes you did once but you have to be an astute listener but of course you also have been.Frank:[37:18] Great.Bill:[37:22] An astute enough person that if you're listening to our podcast you're looking at it and the nameof our podcast is right in front of you. So we really are glad you're listening to Bill and Frank's.Frank:[37:28] Yeah, exactly.Bill:[37:31] Skill-free pleasures we don't have patreon right now for you to give us money or anything like that but what we would like is to hear your story about Fleetwood Max everywhere tell us how this song,has made your life brighter.Frank:[37:48] And also you can just mail cash to us to our addresses.Bill:[37:51] It's right.Frank:[37:52] We'll put those in the show notes.Bill:[37:53] That's right.Frank:[37:56] It's been a fun and fantastic experience putting this podcast out every week.And this song is coming out at the beginning of 2023. And we just want to thank everyone for listening to us and being with us and downloading andtaking this on your drives, on your walks, wherever you listen to it.I listen to podcasts at work all the time instead of working.Bill and I would like to say we want to be with you everywhere.Bill:[38:25] Boop-a-doo-doo-doo.

”Santa Claus is Comin’ To Town”: Jackson 5 vs. Springsteen (Another impossible decision)

The episode title is a little misleading. We didn't have the space to write, "The history of 'Santa Claus is Comin' To Town' and the search for the greatest version of the song from 1934 to the present time." We do get to the versions by both the Jackson 5 and Bruce Springsteen & The E Street Band by the final twenty minutes, but first we take you through the odyssey that is "Santa Claus Is Comin' To Town." Be prepared for space travel, swinging second notes, and an examination of more versions of this song than most ordinary podcasts can handle. 
Thank you for spending your time with us! 
Helpful links to deepen your episode experience:
History of the second beat
Alice Cooper version (that we mentioned but never played)
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Masadon, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist featuring every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn.

Band Aid: ”Do They Know It’s Christmas?” (Open-Hearted Earnestness)

In a similar fashion to last year, Bill is trying once again to convince Frank of the merits of his chosen Christmas song. Will Frank acquiesce and admit "Do They Know It's Christmas?" is a great song? Tune in to find out!
Links mentioned in the episode:
2004 documentary on the song
original video
Live Aid version
BNL version
Daddy's Home 2 version
Glee version
Mixtape
Thanks for joining us! We encourage you to subscribe/follow/rate/review wherever you find us!
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Masadon, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist featuring every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn.

Phil Collins: ”Against All Odds” (A Breakupable Face)

"Against All Odds" is so powerful that it not only gives you comfort in the misery of a failed relationship, but it somehow can make you look forward to those feelings. At least that's how we felt when we first heard this song. Phil Collins is a big deal here at our show and we are very protective of the man. Knowing this, perhaps you might be able to forgive Bill's mild tirade on how you have to have a "breakupable face" to truly appreciate this song.
Links to add to your enjoyment of this episode:
Our mixtape
This American Life: Break-Up
Official music video
Live Aid performance
Academy Awards performance
Richie Vee version
Postal Service version
Thanks for joining us! We encourage you to subscribe/follow/rate/review wherever you find us!
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Masadon, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist featuring every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn.

Third Eye Blind: ”Semi-Charmed Life” (Pleasure or Pain?)

Welcome to a very controversial episode! Is "Semi-Charmed Life” a guilt-free pleasure or should it never be listened to again? Mike V joins us to argue for its inclusion in the Guilt-Free Pleasureverse. Will Bill and Frank reach consensus? Tune in to find out!
Thanks for joining us! We encourage you to subscribe/follow/rate/review wherever you find us!
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Masadon, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist featuring every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn

Roxette: ”Must Have Been Love” (Depressmas)

Brace yourself for one of the most heartbreaking songs of 1990. You can trust us as we journey with you through this track because we understand these feelings all too well: one of us has suffered the dreaded "turkey drop" while the other knows the searing pain of break-up regret on a winter's day. 
Links discussed in the episode.
Video for 1990
Video for 1987
Our mixtape for this episode
Depressmas playlist
Thanks for joining us! We encourage you to subscribe/follow/rate/review wherever you find us!
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Masadon, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist featuring every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn.

Matthew Wilder: ”Break My Stride” (A success story)

"Break My Stride" is one of those songs that you heard everywhere in the 80s. It does not often feature on "best of" lists for the decade (even though it should), but it is arguably a song that is most indicative of the time - you would hear this in shopping malls, offices, radio, etc. And then, for a while, it just seemed to disappear. Or so we thought. The song has made its comeback in recent years, but even more satisfying is finding out who Matthew Wilder is and how this song reflects his life. His story is fascinating and we are thrilled to bring you this episode!
Helpful links that you will enjoy:
The Strangest Dream trailer
The video with the dancers
The Top of the Pops video
Our mixtape.
Thanks for joining us! We encourage you to subscribe/follow/rate/review wherever you find us!
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Masadon, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist for every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn.

Jewel: ”You Were Meant For Me” (Frank feels all of the feels)

This episode found our two co-hosts with different feelings towards this song. To be specific, we had different "feels" from this song. While Bill was able to come around to appreciate the song in the end, Frank gloried in all of what this song has brought to him in his life. So let's break our yolks and make a smiley face and put on our coats in the pouring rain: it's time to feel all the feels of Jewel's "You Were Meant For Me."
THE LINKS IN OUR SHOW NOTES:
Jewel explains the versions
Steve Poltz's Story of the Song
Steve Poltz's Version
Steve Poltz Says Even More
Jewel-Poltz Duet
Our Mixtape
Thanks for joining us! We encourage you to subscribe/follow/rate/review wherever you find us!
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and our website. You can email us at BandFGuiltFree@gmail.com, too.
Here is our Spotify playlist for every song we've featured.
Our theme music is by the incredibly talented Ian McGlynn.
 
 

Celine Dion: ”It’s All Coming Back To Me Now” (Song of the Millenium)

According to the Right Honourable Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber, "It's All Coming Back To Me Now" is the greatest song of the (previous) millenium. We revisit this Celine Dion classic in all of its glory. 
Celine Dion's Music Video
Pandora's Box Music Video (you've been warned)
Meat Loaf's Music Video 
Bill and Frank's mixtape for this song
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